Free Palestine: An interview with Paul Murphy TD
An interview with Paul Murphy TD on Israel’s genocide in Gaza, from Rupture Issue 11
The following interview was conducted by Rupture in November 2023 against the backdrop of Israel’s ongoing bombing and destruction of Gaza. It features in issue 11 of Rupture which is now available to order. If you subscribe by Sunday December 17th, your issue should be shipped by Tuesday December 19th at the latest and be with you for Christmas reading or as a gift for the ecosocialist in your life.
How can the current Israeli assault on Gaza be described?
In a word, genocide. It is a conscious attempt to kill and drive out the Palestinian people from Gaza.
It’s hard to overstate the horror that is unfolding. Like many others, I find it hard to watch the daily videos of bodies of children being carried out of destroyed buildings, and the genocidal speeches of Israeli leaders.
Right now, at the start of November, there is a three-pronged direct assault on the Palestinian people. First stage is bombardment from the air, second is a total siege - cutting off water, food, electricity and fuel. The third is a growing ground invasion with the latest Israeli claim being that they have surrounded Gaza City.
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What do you think the war aims of the Israeli government are?
It seems to me more and more likely that the intention of the Israeli establishment is to carry out a new “Nakba” or catastrophe. This refers to the forced expulsion of almost a million Palestinians out of their homes in 1948.
““They want to go for a major Nakba once more - demanding that over a million Palestinians evacuate their homes in the northern half of Gaza””
Now it seems that they want to go for a major Nakba once more - demanding that over a million Palestinians evacuate their homes in the northern half of Gaza. Seeking to achieve this will mean a full ground invasion, which has the potential for horrendous numbers of Palestinian casualties. It also carries a major risk for the Israeli government, because an increasing number of Israeli soldiers will likely be killed by the Palestinian resistance.
Why do you think the 7 October attack took place?
Two days after 7 October, Gideon Levy wrote an opinion piece in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz with the headline “Israel can’t imprison two million Gazans without paying a cruel price”. When Richard Boyd Barrett quoted this on radio, he was accused of justifying attacks on civilians! Of course we were not doing that - but simply pointing out the truth - that the root cause of the attacks on 7 October and the killing of unarmed civilians, which we completely oppose, is the Israeli occupation.
Now it is very clear what the purpose of the chorus of condemnation of Hamas was. It was about preparing for the current obscene attacks by Israel on the people of Gaza, by presenting this as the “right of Israel to defend itself”. The right of an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing to defend itself means precisely the right to bomb hospitals, to bomb refugee camps to try to starve children.
““The right of an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing to defend itself means precisely the right to bomb hospitals, to bomb refugee camps to try to starve children.””
How have political forces in Ireland responded to the assault on Gaza?
Ireland is a kind of unique place in the West in terms of Palestine. The history of colonisation and mass support for Palestine means that the Irish political establishment feel the need to adapt to that. In contrast to the European Union for example, the Irish government has called for a ceasefire. However, fundamentally, they don’t want to and aren’t willing to do anything to rock the boat of the US-led western consensus, because they see Ireland as part of the NATO camp.
This does mean that the Irish government can be put under pressure on this issue though. It is why it is very important for People Before Profit and others in opposition to have clear demands for action by the government. The crucial demand now is for expulsion of the Israeli ambassador from Ireland. It would be the first expulsion from a European country and would demonstrate internationally that many European people do not agree with the approach of Von der Leyen. It would isolate Israel and pressure other governments to do likewise.
Sinn Féin’s response to this has been interesting. In the past they have repeatedly called for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador. However, this time, they refused to do so for a long time, abstaining on motions on Belfast City Council and Derry Council and voting against a PBP amendment in the Dáil which included this demand. They also voted for a very bad motion from the government in the Dáil which explicitly spoke about Israel’s right to defend itself and refused to condemn Israel. All of this is Sinn Féin preparing for power and signalling to US imperialism in particular that they can be trusted to manage capitalism and keep Ireland within the NATO-supportive block. Thankfully under pressure from PBP and their own members, Sinn Féin has now shifted position to supporting the expulsion.
What are the prospects of a global movement against the occupation?
The disconnect between the political establishment in the western world and the attitudes of ordinary people has rarely been as stark. In Britain there have been repeated protests of hundreds of thousands of people, while the government cheerleads the Israeli onslaught. In the US, there appears to be a rising movement of opposition, while Joe Biden also green lights Israeli genocide. Across Europe, it is the same picture: growing protests against the Israeli onslaught, despite the repression of Palestinian solidarity led by right-wing governments in the west.
There is already a global movement of protest in solidarity with Palestinians. I think this has the potential to grow and to become an important factor in politics. Many people will be radicalised by the current experience and propelled into political activism.
What explains this divergence of attitude between the people and the governments about Palestine?
On the one hand, it is a demonstration that the so-called “international community”, in reality the major imperialist powers, do not care about democracy or human rights. They simply use that rhetoric when it suits them. They care about the profits of corporations and the strategic interests of their capitalist class. From the point of view of western capitalism, Israel is a crucial ally in the Middle East. For that, they are willing to turn a blind eye to almost anything that Israel does.
On the other hand, in the US and in Europe, I think it speaks to a shift in attitudes that has taken place on Palestine over the past ten years or so. I think the BDS movement and grassroots activism worldwide has had a significant effect on attitudes. So while in the US, both the Democrats and Republicans are almost universally united in support for Israel, a majority of the population favours a ceasefire in opinion polls.
Can you tell us a bit about your activism on Palestine?
““We were held in Israeli jail for over a week. Initially, we were mostly locked in our cells and denied rights to meet with each other. “”
In 2011 when I was a Member of the European Parliament, I participated in the Freedom Flotilla to try to break the siege of Gaza. This siege saw people in Gaza have their calorie intake controlled by the Israeli establishment and imposed a humanitarian crisis on the people.
In 2010 when a Flotilla attempted to break the siege and bring medical and other supplies, they were attacked by the Israeli military. The Mavi Marmara was boarded by the Israelis and they killed ten Palestine solidarity activists.
I agreed to participate in the 2011 flotilla to highlight the siege and conditions in Gaza. We faced enormous obstacles in going, with the Greek government blocking us from leaving Greece and then the Irish boat being sabotaged. Eventually, an Irish and Canadian boat set sail. While we were still in international waters, our boats were surrounded by massive Israeli warships. Water cannons were used to try to damage and potentially sink our boats. We were then boarded by highly armed Israeli soldiers before being towed into port.
We were held in Israeli jail for over a week. Initially, we were mostly locked in our cells and denied rights to meet with each other. But we organised in the prison, refusing to obey the guards’ instructions, and were able to win concessions like our books and time outside with each other.
Did you get to later visit Gaza?
““Everywhere you go in Gaza you hear the hum of diesel generators. They rely on these for electricity for the hospitals a lot of the time. That is why the blockade of fuel is so dangerous.””
Later that year, I was able to participate in a trip to Gaza that entered from Egypt through the Rafah Crossing. This was eye opening to see. It’s one thing to understand in theory how Gaza is a densely packed open air concentration camp. It is another thing to see it for yourself.
The first thing that strikes you is how small and packed it is. It is just over 40 km long and from 6 to 10 km wide, but with over 2 million people living there.
The refugee camps are so overcrowded, it’s incredible. We visited the Jabaliya refugee camp which was recently targeted by Israel. We visited a family of seven people living in three tiny rooms. The streets are so narrow that coffins cannot be brought in or out of homes at the centre of Jabaliya, but people have to carry their bodies out and then put them into coffins. Over time Jabaliya like other Palestinian refugee camps has moved from being tents and tin structures to permanent tiny concrete structures built on top of each other.
We visited a hospital in Gaza as well. Even then the conditions were so poor. The doctors told us that the blockade meant that they were running out of surgical gloves and basic medicines. Everywhere you go in Gaza you hear the hum of diesel generators. They rely on these for electricity for the hospitals a lot of the time. That is why the blockade of fuel is so dangerous. Running out of fuel will mean everyone in intensive care and all of the babies in incubators will die.
We also met with prisoners’ rights groups. There is a lot of talk now of the Israeli hostages being held in Gaza. But there is very little talk of the Palestinian hostages being held by Israel. Before the war there were around 6,000 Palestinian prisoners. That has gone up to around 10,000 now, with hundreds being children. More than a thousand are being held in so-called administrative detention. That means they haven’t been charged or tried, it is effectively internment.
What is the alternative to this nightmare for Palestinians?
The first thing to say is that our support for the Palestinians’ right to self-determination is not conditional on Palestinians adopting a socialist programme or adopting the methods of struggle which we advocate. But that doesn’t mean that socialists shouldn’t put forward a socialist perspective. In fact, I think it is essential.
It seems to me that all of the so-called “solutions” are, on the basis of capitalism, achievable only as a reactionary nightmare for the Palestinian people or are utterly utopian.
For example, on the basis of capitalism, a two state solution looks like a version of the Oslo Accords giving extremely circumscribed sovereignty to a non-contiguous Palestinian state, or else is utopian. Why would a highly militarised Israeli state backed by US imperialism concede a viable genuinely independent Palestinian state?
The same applies to a capitalist one state solution. A reactionary one state solution is conceivable - indeed it is the preferred option of the most right-wing sections of the Israeli establishment, completing the Nakba on all of historic Palestine and denying the right of Palestinians to return. A single secular and democratic Palestinian state where Muslims, Jews, Christians and others live together on the other hand appears utopian on the basis of capitalism - why would the Israeli capitalist class concede the end of their rule when they have the military force to resist it?
Therefore building a successful movement to achieve Palestinian liberation will pose the need to challenge capitalism and imperialism in the region. We do not need to prescribe in advance and from afar, what form that socialist solution may take. Crucially though, it must involve the right of Palestinian refugees to return, restitution and reparations, the dismantling of the settlements, as well as recognition of the right of Israeli Jewish people to continue to live there with full rights. One possible solution would be a binational Palestinian state within a socialist federation in the region.
““Building a successful movement to achieve Palestinian liberation will pose the need to challenge capitalism and imperialism in the region. “”
What do you think about Hamas?
As a socialist, I have fundamental differences with Hamas. Hamas is a conservative Islamist political force, which is homophobic, sexist and anti-socialist. I also oppose the targeting of civilians, which I think is wrong and counterproductive.
““In a battle between the Palestinian resistance and the IDF, I am on the side of the Palestinians. I want to see the Israeli army defeated. “”
But I also reject the idea that Hamas is to blame for the current nightmare. It is the occupation that is to blame. People turned to support Hamas at the last elections in the occupied territories in 2006 because they opposed the corruption of Fatah and because they wanted a force which would fight against the occupation instead of becoming part of it which is effectively the role that the Palestinian Authority plays in the West Bank.
So while I disagree with Hamas, my support for the oppressed is not conditional on the oppressed being led by socialists. In a battle between the Palestinian resistance and the “Israeli Defence Forces”, I am on the side of the Palestinians. I want to see the Israeli army defeated.
At the same time, I think socialists have to put forward a socialist vision and strategy for the anti-war movement in Ireland and in the Middle East.
How can apartheid Israel be defeated?
Unfortunately, given the military might of the Israeli state backed by western imperialism, the heroic actions of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank alone will not be sufficient.
While efforts should be made to break as many Israeli Jewish working class people as possible from Zionism, it seems unlikely that a majority, or even a substantial minority will be broken in advance of revolutionary events in the region. This is because in the short term the Israeli Jewish working class benefits from the occupation, with a far higher standard of living than other workers in the region. Of course, in the long run they also lose from Zionist ideology and policies, which serves the Israeli capitalist class. However, the impact of Zionist propaganda in a state with compulsory military service and a sense of being under siege, is clearly powerful. That said, of course we should welcome and encourage the beginnings of an anti-war movement in Israel in the context of fierce repression.
Palestinian citizens of Israel, overwhelmingly working class, are clearly an important potential force for change. However, they lack significant strategic power within the economy by virtue of their largely insecure jobs, marginalisation and the systematic discrimination that they face. An isolated uprising by these workers would quickly face enormous racist repression.
The Arab Spring saw dictators like Mubarak in Egypt and Ben Ali in Tunisia overthrown from below, and revolutionary movements spreading across the region, even finding an echo within Israel itself, before a process of counter-revolution placed el-Sisi in power in Egypt and reversed most of the gains. However, this process illustrates the potential power of the working class and masses, including millions of Palestinian refugees, in North Africa and the Middle East. The oppression of the Palestinians is an issue which will contribute to major movements against these regimes, which would like to move to normalise relations with Israel, against the opposition of the mass of people. Revolutionary movements across the rest of the region will be a crucial factor in challenging the Israeli state and giving solidarity and assistance to the Palestinians. Successful socialist revolutions in any of the countries in the region would be confronted very quickly by Israeli militarism.
The working class in the imperialist states in the west is another important force. Without western (in particular US) military support, the Israeli apartheid state would not be able to continue. A socialist revolution in the US would result in a reversal of policy - away from support for Israel to support for Palestinian self-determination. Short of that, major Palestinian solidarity movements and a shift of public opinion may constrain the ability of US imperialism to continue to funnel billions of dollars of military aid to Israel annually.
What now?
The immediate priority needs to be building a powerful global movement. In People Before Profit we have argued for the calling of an international day of action which could see tens of millions on the streets like on 15 February 2003. People should get involved in Palestine solidarity activism in whatever way they can. The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement will be an important part of this - popularising the idea that people can and should take action.
Within the trade union movement we need to be drawing on the experience of the Dunnes Stores strike against apartheid. Workers taking action to refuse to handle Israeli goods would be enormously popular. Trade unions should tell their members that they will stand by any worker who takes that action.
Paul Murphy is a People Before Profit TD for Dublin South West, a member of the RISE network and a regular on Rupture Radio.